His deluded statement blaming any negativity surrounding Christmas on Christian’s has - as far as I can see - NOTHING to do with the fact that we are all sinners.
I want to know WHY he makes this weird and twisted statement.
Hi Kristin, thank you for reading the post, and for the opportunity to provide insight into my thinking. I don't see these comment sections as win/lose propositions, but an opportunity for discussion and sharing of views, and I do welcome yours. I think you raise a viewpoint that expresses a concern felt by many Christians (and also people of other faiths), who feel the public square for faith-based perspectives is shrinking in the modern world.
(Parenthetically, I am actually going to (indirectly) unpack some of these concerns in a series starting in January. In that series, I examine how postmodernism has shifted societal attitudes regarding what Aquinas termed the "transcendentals", values which writers such as C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein place heavy emphasis on in their consideration of one's relationship with God. I hope you will subscribe, read that series, and continue challenging - spirited and respectful conversation on this is so much better than no conversation at all.)
Regarding the statement you are concerned with, allow me one administrative point before I address the substance. I mirror these posts on LinkedIn, where I am bound by a 3000 character limit. As a result, I don't often have the opportunity to elaborate, and I shorthand points that are sometimes, but not always, covered in other posts. I have a reasonably high view rate, so I trust longer-dated readers to fill in those blanks. I reference some of the prior posts that scaffold the points in "Unforgettable" below, and you may find them helpful to get a fuller view of my thinking.
More substantively on the phrase that gives you concern, the closing paragraph is a coda to the words I opened the post with ("love keeps no record of wrongs") which were written by the New Testament writer, Paul (1 Corinthians 13). In making this point, I am stating, in shorthand, the same basic point which Paul makes in not one, but two, letters to the church in Corinth - which is that as much as the world dislikes Christians, we Christians also fall short of our own ideals. Across those two letters, Paul addressed a number of failings in the church community (what I refer to as the "ruinous clasping at ideals").
These included:
1) Divisions and factions in the church ("I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." -- 1 Cor 1:10).
2) Practices of favoring the wealthy, due to their status, and dishonoring the poor ("When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk." -- 1 Cor 11:20-21)
3) A lack of humility in self-examination and acknowledgment of their own failings in criticizing others. ("Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." -- 1 Cor 11:28-30)
And there are many other examples in Corinth, as well as Paul's letters to the churches in Ephesus and Philippi. In all of these, Paul does not condemn Christians - nor do I. That is for God to judge, and in Christ we have hope in the redemption bought through his blood. But I don't think it is a stretch to say that in our own failings, we offer others reasons to look away from, rather than look towards, the cross.
Importantly, Paul was eager to recognize that though we will often fail in our efforts to emulate the Savior, we should not give up hope, but always be encouraged by the example of others, and to seek to be examples to others. As Paul admonishes the church in Thessaloniki: "We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate." 2 Thess 3:9. In writing this, and other posts, I point towards that model (i.e. Isaiah 53:4).
I think an important point you make is the world does not give Christians a fair shake. I think that is true - but I think it is also true that lots of people in the world don't get a fair shake. We are programmed not to give fair shakes - I examine some of this idea in "How I Broke the World", linked below.
To close, I wish to encourage you that your concern finds its spiritual friend in the apostle Peter, who understood that it is the nature of society to reject and persecute Christian thinking rather than consider it in an open minded way. This is why he considers Christians to be "foreigners and exiles" in 1 Peter 2:11.
Yet, even in so recognizing, Peter chooses not to point his finger at the world, which he knows to be broken, but to ourselves. In the same spirit as Paul admonishes, and which is in the same spirit in which I write, Peter implores:
Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (1 Peter 2:11-12)
There are many who try to live up to this. We of course all fail. And in learning from and listening to each other, we can hopefully do better.
I do sincerely appreciate your very detailed and erudite response to my question.
Clearly, you are extremely well versed in the Bible and various philosophies. As such - despite reading your response several times - no doubt because of my own lack of knowledge the Bible - I have so far not been able to discern the answer to my question. Lol... I still don’t understand Why you say Christians ruin Christmas.🤷♀️
I was hoping for a simpler answer. But perhaps there isn’t one.
I appreciate your kind reply and taking the effort to read through my responses. I think you may realize now why I need the discipline of the 3000 character limit on LinkedIn - I can go on if you let me.
Perhaps a simpler response you are looking for is this:
When it comes to Christmas, we Christians make it a point to celebrate Jesus. We sing songs, put up Nativity Scenes, invite people to church. We tell people He is our Savior, and that He has changed our lives, and we are grateful. And even though that is true and sincere, when people observe us, we don't always look that changed, or that grateful. We still fall back on our old ways, to be hypocritical or disrespectful or insulting. Sometimes we choose how we want to behave based on where we are, and who we are dealing with. When this happens, people who are observing Christians conclude that we are disingenuous, or irrational, or both. As Peter implies, we undermine our worship of Christ through our inevitable un-Christlikeness. This, in turn, provides a basis for others to reject the ideals expressed in the Christmas holiday.
+++++
Deeply Boring was borne out of the idea that we should try to behave more like Christ in all our life spheres. If I am good and kind to others at church, or with my family, I should be respectful and compassionate at work, in my community, in my school. I call this concept "porosity" - i.e. the goodness in one sphere should easily pass through into another - the spheres should be porous. Think of greater porosity as an antidote to hypocrisy.
The fundamental rationale to behave like this is that Christ loves all. (Emphasis on all). That means He loves people I might otherwise dislike, or distrust or who have mistreated me. Christ's model is to love these people nonetheless. That is why, on the cross, He cries to God "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Jesus did not create dividing walls between parts of His life. He loved all. And He is the model for us in love. And so that means, we are also called to love all. This is a very hard lesson to learn and even harder to put into practice. But it is at the very essence of our relationship with God.
Kindly consider Richard Comer's comment below. He explains well how Christ's loving sacrifice is the basis for us to still love those who are unlovable. For a different approach to this question, the links in my original response explore this idea philosophically (rather than doctrinally).
I appreciate you coming to my Substack, the goal of which is to mutually encourage reading and learning. I do see that not all the comments in reply to you were courteous. I also recognize chat forums are a difficult medium to have deep conversation or to express one's thoughts as precisely as one hopes, and we people in general tend to read into comments with the mindset of pushing back on anything we disagree with. In reading your comment, my goal was to assume positive intent, to truly desire to understand your perspective, and to try my best to share how I come to my point of view, while learning from yours. I am hoping that this becomes the model for discourse on Deeply Boring.
I hope you will not allow today's experience to discourage you from following, or reading more, if you find my topics of discussion interesting or at least stimulating. I wish you a pleasant evening, and hope you will look out for next week's post, "The Swirl". It will be a more fun read than this week's, but it will also have some thought provoking content to dive into.
Much appreciate your kind and detailed response. I think I’m beginning to understand your original comment.
Was also going to send a PS re the obvious fault in the extreme commercialization of Christmas. What a sad spectacle it can be.
Along a happier line, I am blessed with memories of my childhood Christmases spent with an extended family led by my Swedish immigrant grandfather who would always read a passage from the Bible before our festivities began. Sweeter days long ago.💜
Ephraim the Syrian, a 4th century Christian, wrote a prayer, the final line of which reads, “Help me be aware of my sin, and not to judge my brother.”
I have found, since the first week of life as a believer (50 years ago), that the conviction of my own sin is a most precious gift of God. It helps me to wake up—not only to who I am, how He sees me—but to His power to redeem me, as I confess my sin and begin to practice repentance.
I think this is so powerful. It is easy for us to see the sin* in others, less so the sin in ourselves. But when we realize God's solution is compassion for our sin, indeed sacrifice for the sake of our sin - it is only a small leap to grasp that his plan for us is to be compassionate for the sin of others, and to sacrifice for the sin of others.
* the separation of self from God, which leads to self-reliance, self-importance, and the shaping of the world around our own sense of power and authority
Thank you for this insightful message. Words are powerful, so we all must be cognizant of sowing and reaping process of the impact of our words, especially those that are unkind and hurt others. Forgiveness is something that is constantly in need of being given and received. Thank you again for sharing your perspective. Gail
He’s right about the transference. It goes two ways. When we accept Jesus’ sacrifice for our own salvation, we give our sins to Him and accept his suffering and death as the punishment we deserve. He accepted our sins in order to offer to us salvation, sanctification, glorification, and a heavenly reward. Why will we be rewarded? In accepting Christ as Savior, we are graced with His righteousness. We are given the most unmerited favor of all history.
This transference you speak of must be from a very high church belief!
We are saved by God’s grace, so that we could be credited with any type of special or extra work that we have done to receive forgiveness.
Jesus went willingly to the cross, to die for our sins, because along with being the son of Mary and was also brought up Joseph, He was first and for most the Son of God.
Jesus died once and for all!
So yes our sins are placed on Jesus ( with a repentant heart) and in turn we don’t have die for our own sins, because of Jesus sacrifice on the Cross, that covered the sin of all people if… we believe he is the son of God, and that only through Jesus death and more importantly His resurrection! Can we be saved… no ifs, ands, or buts!!
Let me start by saying that I completely agree with everything you said. I cannot speak for Richard, but let me speak for myself. I am not saying that there is an "exchange" or "transfer" on a bilateral basis between us and God. The Bible is clear that this is a one way thing from Him to us - hence it is grace, and only grace.
When I speak of "transfer" what I mean is when we feel angry or upset, and the world feels unjust, and there is no fairness or good outcome (as the world measures) for us to hold on to, we do not have to become imprisoned by those feelings. Because of Christ, we have the ability to let go of these difficult things. In that sense (and possibly how Richard intended it), our pain is "transferred" - given away - to Him.
The doctrinal basis for this notion is Matthew 11:28-30.
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Jesus asks us to bring our troubles and our pain to Him and lay them at His feet. He will carry the burden which we cannot. This is why my post closes with Isaiah 53:4:
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
I hope this helps. And again, thank you for reading and engaging!!!
Wait What??? You’re blaming any negativity surrounding Christmas on CHRISTIANS???
Seriously???
Wow.
First of all, in case you didn’t know, not all Christians are the same - just like all
Chinese people are the same.
Where do you get this deluded idea?
Please please explain.😩
I don't enjoy admitting it; but he's right of course, we are sinners; which is why we need a Savior.
His deluded statement blaming any negativity surrounding Christmas on Christian’s has - as far as I can see - NOTHING to do with the fact that we are all sinners.
I want to know WHY he makes this weird and twisted statement.
I want facts, dates, evidence!!!
Hi Kristin, thank you for reading the post, and for the opportunity to provide insight into my thinking. I don't see these comment sections as win/lose propositions, but an opportunity for discussion and sharing of views, and I do welcome yours. I think you raise a viewpoint that expresses a concern felt by many Christians (and also people of other faiths), who feel the public square for faith-based perspectives is shrinking in the modern world.
(Parenthetically, I am actually going to (indirectly) unpack some of these concerns in a series starting in January. In that series, I examine how postmodernism has shifted societal attitudes regarding what Aquinas termed the "transcendentals", values which writers such as C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein place heavy emphasis on in their consideration of one's relationship with God. I hope you will subscribe, read that series, and continue challenging - spirited and respectful conversation on this is so much better than no conversation at all.)
Regarding the statement you are concerned with, allow me one administrative point before I address the substance. I mirror these posts on LinkedIn, where I am bound by a 3000 character limit. As a result, I don't often have the opportunity to elaborate, and I shorthand points that are sometimes, but not always, covered in other posts. I have a reasonably high view rate, so I trust longer-dated readers to fill in those blanks. I reference some of the prior posts that scaffold the points in "Unforgettable" below, and you may find them helpful to get a fuller view of my thinking.
More substantively on the phrase that gives you concern, the closing paragraph is a coda to the words I opened the post with ("love keeps no record of wrongs") which were written by the New Testament writer, Paul (1 Corinthians 13). In making this point, I am stating, in shorthand, the same basic point which Paul makes in not one, but two, letters to the church in Corinth - which is that as much as the world dislikes Christians, we Christians also fall short of our own ideals. Across those two letters, Paul addressed a number of failings in the church community (what I refer to as the "ruinous clasping at ideals").
These included:
1) Divisions and factions in the church ("I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." -- 1 Cor 1:10).
2) Practices of favoring the wealthy, due to their status, and dishonoring the poor ("When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk." -- 1 Cor 11:20-21)
3) A lack of humility in self-examination and acknowledgment of their own failings in criticizing others. ("Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." -- 1 Cor 11:28-30)
And there are many other examples in Corinth, as well as Paul's letters to the churches in Ephesus and Philippi. In all of these, Paul does not condemn Christians - nor do I. That is for God to judge, and in Christ we have hope in the redemption bought through his blood. But I don't think it is a stretch to say that in our own failings, we offer others reasons to look away from, rather than look towards, the cross.
Importantly, Paul was eager to recognize that though we will often fail in our efforts to emulate the Savior, we should not give up hope, but always be encouraged by the example of others, and to seek to be examples to others. As Paul admonishes the church in Thessaloniki: "We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate." 2 Thess 3:9. In writing this, and other posts, I point towards that model (i.e. Isaiah 53:4).
I think an important point you make is the world does not give Christians a fair shake. I think that is true - but I think it is also true that lots of people in the world don't get a fair shake. We are programmed not to give fair shakes - I examine some of this idea in "How I Broke the World", linked below.
https://deeplyboring.substack.com/p/how-i-broke-the-world
as well as "Stop and/end Hate"
https://deeplyboring.substack.com/p/stop-andend-hate?utm_source=publication-search
A longer discursive walk through the internal mechanims of divisiveness is collated in the Exclusives section, here:
https://deeplyboring.substack.com/p/peace-dividends-db-exclusive-71424
To close, I wish to encourage you that your concern finds its spiritual friend in the apostle Peter, who understood that it is the nature of society to reject and persecute Christian thinking rather than consider it in an open minded way. This is why he considers Christians to be "foreigners and exiles" in 1 Peter 2:11.
Yet, even in so recognizing, Peter chooses not to point his finger at the world, which he knows to be broken, but to ourselves. In the same spirit as Paul admonishes, and which is in the same spirit in which I write, Peter implores:
Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (1 Peter 2:11-12)
There are many who try to live up to this. We of course all fail. And in learning from and listening to each other, we can hopefully do better.
Dear Justin,
I do sincerely appreciate your very detailed and erudite response to my question.
Clearly, you are extremely well versed in the Bible and various philosophies. As such - despite reading your response several times - no doubt because of my own lack of knowledge the Bible - I have so far not been able to discern the answer to my question. Lol... I still don’t understand Why you say Christians ruin Christmas.🤷♀️
I was hoping for a simpler answer. But perhaps there isn’t one.
Thanks for trying.
Kind Regards and Best Wishes.👋🙏🤓
Kristin,
I appreciate your kind reply and taking the effort to read through my responses. I think you may realize now why I need the discipline of the 3000 character limit on LinkedIn - I can go on if you let me.
Perhaps a simpler response you are looking for is this:
When it comes to Christmas, we Christians make it a point to celebrate Jesus. We sing songs, put up Nativity Scenes, invite people to church. We tell people He is our Savior, and that He has changed our lives, and we are grateful. And even though that is true and sincere, when people observe us, we don't always look that changed, or that grateful. We still fall back on our old ways, to be hypocritical or disrespectful or insulting. Sometimes we choose how we want to behave based on where we are, and who we are dealing with. When this happens, people who are observing Christians conclude that we are disingenuous, or irrational, or both. As Peter implies, we undermine our worship of Christ through our inevitable un-Christlikeness. This, in turn, provides a basis for others to reject the ideals expressed in the Christmas holiday.
+++++
Deeply Boring was borne out of the idea that we should try to behave more like Christ in all our life spheres. If I am good and kind to others at church, or with my family, I should be respectful and compassionate at work, in my community, in my school. I call this concept "porosity" - i.e. the goodness in one sphere should easily pass through into another - the spheres should be porous. Think of greater porosity as an antidote to hypocrisy.
The fundamental rationale to behave like this is that Christ loves all. (Emphasis on all). That means He loves people I might otherwise dislike, or distrust or who have mistreated me. Christ's model is to love these people nonetheless. That is why, on the cross, He cries to God "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Jesus did not create dividing walls between parts of His life. He loved all. And He is the model for us in love. And so that means, we are also called to love all. This is a very hard lesson to learn and even harder to put into practice. But it is at the very essence of our relationship with God.
Kindly consider Richard Comer's comment below. He explains well how Christ's loving sacrifice is the basis for us to still love those who are unlovable. For a different approach to this question, the links in my original response explore this idea philosophically (rather than doctrinally).
I appreciate you coming to my Substack, the goal of which is to mutually encourage reading and learning. I do see that not all the comments in reply to you were courteous. I also recognize chat forums are a difficult medium to have deep conversation or to express one's thoughts as precisely as one hopes, and we people in general tend to read into comments with the mindset of pushing back on anything we disagree with. In reading your comment, my goal was to assume positive intent, to truly desire to understand your perspective, and to try my best to share how I come to my point of view, while learning from yours. I am hoping that this becomes the model for discourse on Deeply Boring.
I hope you will not allow today's experience to discourage you from following, or reading more, if you find my topics of discussion interesting or at least stimulating. I wish you a pleasant evening, and hope you will look out for next week's post, "The Swirl". It will be a more fun read than this week's, but it will also have some thought provoking content to dive into.
Dear Justin,
Much appreciate your kind and detailed response. I think I’m beginning to understand your original comment.
Was also going to send a PS re the obvious fault in the extreme commercialization of Christmas. What a sad spectacle it can be.
Along a happier line, I am blessed with memories of my childhood Christmases spent with an extended family led by my Swedish immigrant grandfather who would always read a passage from the Bible before our festivities began. Sweeter days long ago.💜
"you can release your pain to another, one who has borne our iniquities and carried our sorrows."
Justin. This is my only read of yours and without reading the comments I wasn't sure you were Christian.
I'm pretty sure the "another" you are referring to is Jesus Christ.
If so, then it's important to name Jesus Christ, unless there's another who has borne our iniquities and carried our sorrows.
Is there?
Beautiful reply Justin.
Kristin: you are a prime example of why women need husbands.
EXCUSE me??? 😂🤣😂
I’ve been happily married for 38 years - still going and still happy.
So take your idiotic assumption and please - oh pretty please -
GO F-K YOURSELF!!!
Ignore this unhappy Troll. He makes no sense and is only trying to insult people.
What are we to do with those who despitefully use us?
Are you a Christian?
Isn't this a great opportunity to reflect your faith in your character, it being Christmas time and all?
Isn't this pretty much what Justin refers to? I personally think so. Bare minimum, ignore that Just an American Troll.
Gotcha!!!
Okay… I was born in the very early 60’s still I’m considered a “boomer woman” as you say it!
We only may become unhinged when we are stereotyped! But I am not a Liberal ! I am a quite conservative… and a God fearing Christian to boot!🥾
Thank you for proving my point.
Please explain How?
I should have asked you the first time - why you assumed I was unmarried.
I’m very curious.
You seem very angry with women in general. Am I right??
Ephraim the Syrian, a 4th century Christian, wrote a prayer, the final line of which reads, “Help me be aware of my sin, and not to judge my brother.”
I have found, since the first week of life as a believer (50 years ago), that the conviction of my own sin is a most precious gift of God. It helps me to wake up—not only to who I am, how He sees me—but to His power to redeem me, as I confess my sin and begin to practice repentance.
I think this is so powerful. It is easy for us to see the sin* in others, less so the sin in ourselves. But when we realize God's solution is compassion for our sin, indeed sacrifice for the sake of our sin - it is only a small leap to grasp that his plan for us is to be compassionate for the sin of others, and to sacrifice for the sin of others.
* the separation of self from God, which leads to self-reliance, self-importance, and the shaping of the world around our own sense of power and authority
Thank you for this insightful message. Words are powerful, so we all must be cognizant of sowing and reaping process of the impact of our words, especially those that are unkind and hurt others. Forgiveness is something that is constantly in need of being given and received. Thank you again for sharing your perspective. Gail
Very insightful!
He’s right about the transference. It goes two ways. When we accept Jesus’ sacrifice for our own salvation, we give our sins to Him and accept his suffering and death as the punishment we deserve. He accepted our sins in order to offer to us salvation, sanctification, glorification, and a heavenly reward. Why will we be rewarded? In accepting Christ as Savior, we are graced with His righteousness. We are given the most unmerited favor of all history.
Richard, thank you. You said it perfectly.
I’m sorry, Mr. Richard Comer!
This transference you speak of must be from a very high church belief!
We are saved by God’s grace, so that we could be credited with any type of special or extra work that we have done to receive forgiveness.
Jesus went willingly to the cross, to die for our sins, because along with being the son of Mary and was also brought up Joseph, He was first and for most the Son of God.
Jesus died once and for all!
So yes our sins are placed on Jesus ( with a repentant heart) and in turn we don’t have die for our own sins, because of Jesus sacrifice on the Cross, that covered the sin of all people if… we believe he is the son of God, and that only through Jesus death and more importantly His resurrection! Can we be saved… no ifs, ands, or buts!!
Enough said!!
Jules, I am so appreciative of your engagement.
Let me start by saying that I completely agree with everything you said. I cannot speak for Richard, but let me speak for myself. I am not saying that there is an "exchange" or "transfer" on a bilateral basis between us and God. The Bible is clear that this is a one way thing from Him to us - hence it is grace, and only grace.
When I speak of "transfer" what I mean is when we feel angry or upset, and the world feels unjust, and there is no fairness or good outcome (as the world measures) for us to hold on to, we do not have to become imprisoned by those feelings. Because of Christ, we have the ability to let go of these difficult things. In that sense (and possibly how Richard intended it), our pain is "transferred" - given away - to Him.
The doctrinal basis for this notion is Matthew 11:28-30.
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Jesus asks us to bring our troubles and our pain to Him and lay them at His feet. He will carry the burden which we cannot. This is why my post closes with Isaiah 53:4:
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
I hope this helps. And again, thank you for reading and engaging!!!